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Okay. Thank you. I
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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gayatri.
Presidential elections are coming up in
Indonesia the fourth largest country in
the world though not a lot of people
know that. It's an archipelago of tens
of thousands of islands of which only
Bali nowadays gets much talked about and
often for the wrong reasons. This was
not always the case. The Bandong
Conference in 1955 on the island of Java
where I'm from was once the center of
the emerging postc colonial world. Our
first and greatest president Sukarno who
had led this freedom struggle against
the Dutch convened all the great
anti-imperialist leaders from around the
world. Nasser from Egypt, Nu of India,
Tito of Yugoslavia and Kruma of Ghana
and many others. Sukarno was the last
Indonesian president able to give the
country the weight its size and
importance deserved. It is the largest
Muslim country in the world after all
and when he was overthrown in a US
organized and blood soaked coup in 1965
the country went downhill fast and far.
The US puppet dictator Suarto presided
over the world's biggest massacre in
modern times wiping out literally
millions of his own citizens and all
with US approval. There was no doubting
Indonesia's alignment in Suarto's dark
days. Anyone who has watched Joshua
Openenheimimer's epic and
multi-awwardwinning film, The Act of
Killing, will know that the fascism
which underpins Suarto hasn't gone away.
Impunity and amnesia are the twin
pillars of today's Indonesia. One of the
remnants is now the prominent
presidential candidate Suarto Sonilo
Prao. He's a former general standing
against Jookoi. He was the current
governor of Jakarta and was in 2012
awarded the most outstanding mayor. Last
week, Praau said that democracy was
quote an unindesian thing unquote, but
he's hoping it can be fixed for him.
Anyway, we'll know the results soon.
With us now to discuss Indonesia, the
sleeping giant is Anton Alifandi,
formerly with the BBC, now the principal
Southeast Asia analyst at IHS. Anton,
thanks for joining us. Let's start with
this uh statement by PBO who says that
the uh Indonesians don't really need
democracy. It's an unIndones thing. Uh
what did he mean by that and how did
that go down? Well, he's certainly said
in the past that there there are too
many administrative regions in
Indonesia, too many over 500 as a matter
of fact and he thinks it's too unwieldly
to govern the country. But I think what
has happened, what you've given away is
very difficult to take back. If there
are any attempts to sort of reign u
what's been happening in the in in the
past uh 15 or so years in terms of
restriction elections, there'll be a lot
of resistance to that. So you don't
think it'll go far? No, I don't think
so. Now, uh, in one way you could see
this as a Sukarno Suarto runoff,
although neither of the parties are
quite what their mentors might have
been. Would you agree with that? Well um
contrary to the introduction your
introduction I think Praoa styles
himself as Sukarno which you know every
everyone thinks it's you know slightly
odd given the fact that he was Suharto
son-in-law and and he grew up and um uh
his career advanced under Suarto under
the authoritarian government of Suarto.
He he he styles himself as as Sukarno
but he was never um you know a
sukarnoist despite the his claims. No he
is not a sukanoist in ideology but he's
an he's more an ideologist in the
suhatto terms. Yeah. Yeah. I I you know
some some uh there are some character
characteristics uh which is displayed
which I I think um sort of um matches
with the style of governance of Zuharto.
But times have changed I think in a lot
of ways. Yeah. I think George wants to
place Jookoi in the Sukarno Suko. Well,
I do. Although everything I've seen and
read about him, he doesn't quite reach
the mark.
Uh but he is obviously the the left of
center candidate or the center left
candidate and he does have the support
of uh Sukarno's family. If you look at
uh Jooko's manifesto, it it it harks
back to uh all the Sukarno mantras, you
know, uh uh economic uh
self-sufficiency,
cultural independence, political
independence. So there's a lot of uh
Sukarno's rhetoric, but I think Prao uh
sorry Jookoi and his partner very much
pragmatic in their outlook in terms of
economic policy and and and even foreign
policy. So, I don't think you'll see a
turn, a sharp turn to the left. Uh,
either way, the sleeping giant issue is
one that has long occupied my mind. Uh,
at least since marrying an Indonesian.
Uh, but before that too, this is a
gigantic country, the world's fourth
largest, the largest Muslim country in
the entire Umahmah. And yet, its weight
is, forgive me saying so, very, very
light. its footprint in the world very
slight. That is true. If you look at it
for example in Indonesia's contribution
to world affairs for example and if I in
in the presidential debates a few weeks
ago uh Jook Koi uh was in fact asked
what are you going to do in the South
China Sea uh dispute uh which is um uh
occupying the minds of a lot of people
in the region and he said basically it's
none of our business. So it seems to me
he's not really confident enough uh uh
one in foreign policy and two
at the moment at least he doesn't have
uh a close uh grasp of of of the big
regional issues and perhaps the the the
big uh world issues as well the world uh
the big global issues. Well, we'll be
happy to advise him if he uh if he wins.
I'm sure you but perhaps he was nervous
about the kind of smears which have now
emerged. Uh just the other day it was
said that he was not a Muslim, in fact a
secret Christian, that he was not
Japanese, that he was Chinese and then
this week even that he was his family
was affiliated with the Communist Party.
Yeah, it's certainly uh
the most badteered and acrimonious
campaign in Indonesia's history at least
since uh the Suarto days. So I think a
lot of people are taken aback and the
attacks on his uh you know religious
background. I think it's along the same
lines as when Obama was um wrongly
described as Muslim and Arab as you
know. So it's it's very similar in that
sense. He looks a bit similar. He does
look like him. Is there maybe there is a
sort of an African subliminal
subliminal touch there. Um but it's
still a mystery to me. Uh albeit that
Suarto was from my perspective just a
brute dictator. Uh, Indonesia is
exceedingly rich, exceedingly large,
exceedingly populous, and yet most
people have kind of forgotten that it
exists. Malaysia, which is tiny by
comparison, has a big footprint in the
world. Yeah, it Malaysia certainly has a
high profile and you know, some
Malaysian companies like Petronas are
global companies. But if you look at the
the GDP figures, for example, the latest
uh figure by the World Bank, Indonesia
is now on the ninth or the 10th um uh
most um uh country with the the highest
GDP, not per capita, of course, but it
it's just below Britain, but it's sort
of under the radar in that sense. It's
it's probably not uh sexy enough in
terms of the trouble that the country
generates, but it also not um
high-profile enough in in terms of the
the companies that Indonesia produce or
the kind of um uh things that Indonesia
gets publicized uh about. Well, my
children will be half Indonesian. Have
they got uh have they got something good
to look forward to? Whoever wins, I
think so. I mean um things have been
going well economically uh since 2004
despite um the
dissatisfaction directed uh towards the
current president but Indonesia has
registered solid growth there is you
know a lot of improve improvement still
to uh in terms of um uh getting more
equitable development and so on. Who's
going to win the presidential election?
I need to put you on the spot.
I we don't do polls but uh certainly uh
the momentum is is with Prao. I think uh
the campaign is much more focused from
money from perhaps from his side but
also I think it's it's uh better focused
uh while on the other hand the Jookoi
campaign is much more of a you know
scatter gun with a lot of um uh people
directing it. And what is also exciting
for me is that I've never seen
Indonesians so engaged in in in the
elections uh for good or bad. If you and
if you follow social media, it's just
that you know there is no middle ground
there. You're either well for a lot of
people there's no middle ground. you are
you're either for Praau who is seen by a
lot of people as decisive and firm and
um uh Jookoi who's seen as uh very close
to the people and has the interest of
the people at heart. Isn't it the case
that this is the first real election
that there has been. It's the first
election in which a real political
choice could be made. If if if you
compare it with, for example, with five
years ago, it was a three-way race and
Euro won 60% of the vote against two
other pairings. Now it's I don't know it
might not be George W. Bush Al Gore
close but it's certainly going to be
close. And will it be fair? Can we trust
the people I think so bureaucracy to
count the votes fairly? There have been
accusations particularly from the Jookoi
camp that uh Prao has used his old
military contacts and uh local
governments uh uh uh of uh directing
their voters towards his side. But I
think you have to also bear in mind that
most voters in Indonesia are stupid.
They might take the money from whatever
side, you know, gives out these little
presents, but they they'll vote mostly,
I think, at their own accord.
Anton Alifandi will watch the result
closely here on the Sputnik. Thank you
very much. After the break, we'll be
talking to a man who has no fear about a
people who have no fear either. We'll be
right back.
Welcome back to Sputnik. A veritable
slaughter of the Palestinians took place
last week, but nobody much was paying
attention. Most of the media made sure
about that. All attention was focused on
the kidnap and murder by unknown killers
of three young Israeli settlers
squatting illegally on stolen
Palestinian land. The Western media and
politician knew each one of them by
name. Few could have named a single one
of the Palestinian children killed. One
every three days over the last 13 years
by Israel, by settlers, and by the
occupation force which guards them. No
sooner had the bodies of the three
settlers been found than a pilgrim of
Palestinians began in Gaza, far away
from the scene of the crime.
Indiscriminate bombing from land, sea,
and air began with once again the near
two million Palestinians locked up
inside, having nowhere to run, nowhere
to hide. And a young Palestinian boy was
kidnapped, tortured, murdered, and set
on fire in West Jerusalem. As usual,
Western statesmen and their media echo
chambers were unmoved. The state of
Israel in any case is out of control,
killing and maming at will, confident
that no one is going to try and stop
them, especially those who pay for it
all and who arm them. A young
Englishman, Harry Fear, based in Gaza
when he can get there, is one of the
West's most fearless supporters of the
besieged and belleaguered and all but
abandoned Palestinians. And I'm glad to
welcome him back on board the Sputnik.
Harry, it was a traumatic week and may
have sparked the beginnings of a new
inifada in Palestine. How did you see
the week unfold? Well, I mean, it was
extraordinary because it was all of this
attention was brought about because of
three Israeli teenagers being killed.
But empirically, three Israeli teenagers
is nothing in the context of this
conflict. But suddenly, the conflict has
the world's attention. massive
attention, massive international
headlines and etc. The fact that almost
10 or over 10 Palestinian youths were
killed in the same period uh is of no
relevance to anyone. It's no one knows
any of their names. No one knows any of
their names and no one it's it's like no
one cares. I personally I don't blame
the journalists. I blame I blame the
editors because they frame how
everything is produced. And um really
it's about the fact that Israel has all
of the power. It has all of the military
power. It has all of the diplomatic
power here. The Palestinians have
practically no power under occupation.
And so all of the attention goes on,
well, what's the the the powerful going
to do next? to collectively punish a a
population for an act carried out by one
or two or five or however many of these
killers there were of the three
teenagers is an absolutely illegal act.
It's what was most shocking was when the
Israeli military basically attacked or
demolished partially the home of the two
men that they claim were allegedly
responsible for this murder. Right. But
the point is that this was done in
blatant well evening daylight and the
media didn't pick up on this at all.
They showed it happening. They showed
the video real. But the fact that this
was a a primacy war crime, no worries.
We're here in Britain. If uh in the time
of the troublesh the IRA had killed
three British people and Britain had
then begun a ruthless, remorseless
aerial, naval and land bombardment of
entirely unbelievable unconnected
civilian people in parts of Ireland.
Well, I mean, you just got to state that
to see how absurd it is. Britain would
never have done it. They'd never have
gotten away with it. America would have
seen to that if they had. Why is Israel
allowed to do it? Well, it's just
unbelievable. I mean, Israel, the way
Israel has treated this incident, if
that's what you want to call it, is is
is basically to to treat it like it's
kind of a war crime. The kidnapping of
these three Israelis that Palestinians,
any Palestinian, any Arab is basically
susceptible to be treated like a
prisoner of war or treated like
basically an animal. And so if you just
for imagine another analogy, imagine
that three uh American youths are
kidnapped in the USA. Imagine that the
police and the FBI or whatever go
through literally hundreds of people's
homes, ransacking them all just to look
for these three kidnapped youths. I
mean, it's just unimaginable. But the
point is that Israel has treated this
incident not as a kind of a crim
criminal
as a kind of an act of terror. It was a
terrible crime. One of the things that
occupied me most this week, I had more
than a million, in fact almost one and a
half million views of something I put up
on Facebook in which I asked, "Where are
the Arab leaders? Where are the Muslim
leaders?" None of them appear to be
able, willing to lift a finger to even
to say, "Stop doing this." Why? Why? Why
has the Arab world come to this path?
Well, I this is this is probably one of
the major contentions which separates
the Palestinian issue of apartheid from
the South African issue of apartheid
because at least the the black South
Africans did have some nation state
allies. I mean the Cubans for example,
but it is shocking and it is almost
eternally depressing that the Arabs have
basically forgotten the Palestinian
issue and in Egypt over the last two
years it's almost got worse and worse
and worse. I mean just let's take for
example one one point of it which is the
Rafa crossing with Gaza and Egypt. Uh
there was a murmuring a few weeks ago
that the Egyptians may open the crossing
now that there is some kind of unity
between Hamas and Fata. Well that's
that's flown out of the nest very
quickly because of what's happened. But
the Egyptians talked about potential
improvements. That's all but gone now.
Hamas is extremely weak in Gaza and the
situation really in the last three and a
half, four weeks has totally
deteriorated. All of the improvements
which have been stacking up over the
last few months have just basically
evaporated. So this unity uh behind
President Abbas has apparently
just faded away. Uh and the authority
has no authority. It's called the
Palestine National Authority, but it's
not all of Palestine. It's not national.
It's definitely got no authority.
It's not even on life support. I mean,
it's virtually comeos this whole
situation. Something has to change. I
don't think that there will be an
inifer. I think that Palestinians are
too tired for that. I think that the PA
or the PNA will suppress that. Um the
parties the Palestinian parties are so
weak and I think that frankly the morale
is so weak that I think an inifatter is
unlikely. I think what's more likely is
that it'll continue in this fairly
intractable position for months to
continue. The settlements I'm sure will
be made in the name of these three
Israelis who were killed and abducted as
a kind of yeah retribution. And I think
that that that whole kind of reaction
that we've seen in Israel of tens of
thousands of Israelis liking the idea of
killing Palestinian children and going
out and seeking blood, revenge and etc.
I don't think that's representative
necessarily of all of Israel, Israeli
society. But clearly that that marks
very distinctly that there is something
wrong with Israeli society in respect of
racism and hatred. And unfortunately, of
course, there's hatred on both sides.
But the po the problem is that all of
the power lies on the Israeli side and
it's free to use that to exact its
hatred. And the peace envoy uh was as
usual uh absent without leave uh utterly
silent. In fact, we now learn signing uh
very lucrative deals uh with the
Egyptian military juna in Cairo. Uh you
couldn't make it up. No, I mean there's
a big campaign now. were involved in it
to have him removed as peace envoy.
Sheamus Mil in the Guardian uh this week
uh said that he must be stripped of all
public authority, the conflict of
interest involved in his business
dealings and working for the quartet and
his support for the Israeli side in all
uh controversies and his wish to spread
war and confrontation in the Middle East
makes the continuation in the
appointment surely uh untenable. You
think he's long for that position? It's
absurd. Of course, it's absurd. The
whole peace process has been absurd. The
idea that the Americans can broker it,
that the idea that there's any mandate
on the Palestinian side, and the idea
that Israel has any intention to do
anything positive to make peace or to
make justice, the whole thing's absurd.
And unfortunately, the Tony Blair
situation of him being this uh peace
envoy to the quartet, basically it's
emblematic emblematic of the whole
situation of the West treating the
conflict in this way. There's no
seriosity. There's no gravity involved.
And even in respect of the sympathy that
we have seen towards the Palestinians
and it's been very limited over the last
few weeks, it's basically just there for
diplomatic balance. No one actually
really cares, of course. But I think uh
we've now seen a big switch. The Arabs
have turned away from the Palestinians,
but in the West, I have never known a
time where so many people could see
clearly uh who the victims in this
picture are. It's very odd, but the
liberation of Palestine might now have
to be driven from not just outside of
Palestine, but outside of the region
itself. boycott, divestment, sanctions,
all of these big movements getting
stronger and stronger in Europe, but
also in North America. That's one of the
strange things about what's happened
over the last month as well, that the
ostensibly you'd expect that the the
killing of these three Israeli youths
would dramatically worsen the
Palestinian image, if you like. But
actually, it hasn't done that because
we've seen the US, the UK, the EU, and
the UN all issue statements towards
Israel saying, "Restrain yourself in
reaction." I mean that's actually in
that in diplomatic terms that is
actually an improvement and we got to we
got to grasp on to where there are
hopes. Well, there's a demonstration uh
outside the Israeli embassy in London uh
today Saturday and there is uh similar
demonstrations going on everywhere. Uh I
was amazed at the gusto and the spirit
with which uh supporters of the
Palestinians weren't fooled by this
false dichotomy that had been drawn in
the week and were uh up for continuing
the struggle. So perhaps all is not
lost. But uh I'm surprised you say you
don't think there will be an inifada
that finally the Palestinians have lost
the will for the time being to fight.
What do you base that on? I base that on
the fact that there have been adequate
instance over the years that one would
hope uh with all of the pressures
surrounding them that would spark
something. And I think at the moment, I
mean, there have been clashes over the
last week, um, particularly since the
Palestinian youth was killed in the
reprisal incident, but I don't think
there's by any means the kind of numbers
needed uh, even at this at at this stage
to indicate that there could be any kind
of immediate swelling into an inifard.
And I think that an inifard I think
unfortunately the PA knows an inifer
would be a kind of obliteration for the
PA. And I think there's too much
self-interest and too much control to an
extent uh and intimidation in the West
Bank for that to ever happen. I think
you know the situation in Gaza is
equally as weak. Uh Hamas has
practically no allies now. Uh Egypt's
gone and etc. And now the reconciliation
situation well that's basically blown
out of the water because of what's
happened over the last couple of weeks.
So I think that people uh both of the
entities, Palestinian and Israeli
entities are going to want to stabilize
the situation for their own for their
own benefits. And there is this kind of
sick symbiotic relationship between the
Palestinian powers and the Israeli
powers and unfortunately the Palestinian
people and the chance of an actual civil
uprising inif I think that those kinds
of things I think they're they're far
away from us unfortunately. Har stay
fearless. Thanks very much for joining
us.
And now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's rattling guy on Indonesia?
Ahmed Sad Kureshi says that Indonesia
don't have much feet in global politics.
So I don't think it'll make any
difference who wins. They're like
confidence. Yeah. Rather I mean the
weight is there. If they wanted to,
they'd have to be heard and listened to.
Yeah. On Palestine. Jason responds. I
would send in Blair. He'll sort it out.
Well, Blair's rather busy uh busy doing
a lot of business. Uh this is a man who
made
well over a hundred million pounds in
the seven years he's been peace envoy,
most of it from companies and
governments operating in the Middle East
area. Uh although he is beginning to
spread his wings. He was last seen in
Mongolia. He's even working for the
Mongolians. There you go. Well, that's
it for this week, which unfortunately
means that's all we've got time for. Do
please keep in touch with us on Twitter
at RT_Sputnik
and on Facebook you can like us on
Sputnik on Russia Today. Goodbye from
me, Gatri and from me, George Galloway.
It's been marvelous.
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